BERLIN — It was actually quite simple to be invited by Joe Rogan to be a guest on the world’s biggest podcast. I had heard that Rogan had mentioned my books several times on his show, so I simply sent him an email at the end of July, and said I would like to come as a guest.
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A few minutes later, his assistant responded and was already taking care of the travel logistics for the coming week: flights, limousine, hotel, meals. It was so easy that I couldn’t really believe it at first.
Even as the departure drew closer, I thought until the last moment that something would come up: maybe Quentin Tarantino could only make it on that one date, or maybe Edward Snowden had agreed to come at short notice and there would be no room for me. It was only when I boarded the American Airlines plane and took a seat in first class — business class is apparently not comfortable enough for Rogan’s guests — that I was at least sure that I would be traveling to Texas.
During the flight, I realized I didn’t really know what I was getting myself into. I had never listened to “The Joe Rogan Experience” before because I always thought it would be deadly boring to listen to other people babble for hours. Podcasts played no role in my life. Now, I was suddenly going to be a guest on the biggest of them all.
Who is this guy?
But who is this Joe Rogan, and why is his podcast considered so important? Rogan started out as a stand-up comedian, acted in a sitcom and hosted the reality show Fear Factor. Over 20 years ago, he also became known as an interviewer and commentator of mixed martial arts fights in the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC), which is popular in the United States. He started his podcast on Christmas Eve 2009.
At first, he just fooled around in front of the microphone with a friend, but over time, more and more interesting guests joined him. His encounters with neuroscientists, physicists, mycologists, politicians and Hollywood stars were different from conventional talk show formats; Rogan did not ask the usual interview questions but tried to get to the heart of what he was most interested in.
In 2020, Rogan closed a 0 million deal with streaming service Spotify. Since then, “The Joe Rogan Experience” has been the undisputed No. 1 in the podcast universe with around 15 million listeners on Spotify and more than 18 million on YouTube. And the 57-year-old comedian from New Jersey is considered one of the most influential people in the world.
Kamala Harris’ decision not to appear Rogan’s show — despite being invited — was a crucial mistake.
New York Times columnist Ezra Klein was probably right when, in his analysis of the US presidential election, he cited Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris‘ decision not to appear Rogan’s show — despite being invited — as a crucial mistake. In other words, she did not understand how important it would have been to speak to his young, predominantly male audience of millions.
This, Klein wrote, not only damaged her campaign, but perhaps even showed that she was unable to speak to the part of society that Rogan reaches – unlike Trump, whose deliberately relaxed three-hour chat with Rogan was viewed more than 50 million times on YouTube alone a few days before the election and influenced many undecided voters. Especially since Rogan called on his fan base to vote for Trump the day before the election.
In 2020, Rogan had spoken out in favor of the then-presidential candidate Bernie Sanders — as a left-wing populist, a kind of counter-proposal to Trump. Sanders had received enormous support after an appearance on Rogan’s show, but at the same time had to harsh criticism from the Democratic Party.
In Joe’s bro world
For years, the hypermasculinity embodied by the beefy, bald Rogan had been described primarily as toxic — a world that woke circles wanted nothing to do with, especially since Rogan shows no qualms about talking to people who are described in traditional media as conspiracy theorists or lateral thinkers.
Over the years, he had also repeatedly attracted attention with blatant statements about transgender people and women’s IQs, as well as his use of the N-word. So I was not surprised when a lesbian filmmaker friend from Los Angeles told me before my trip to Texas that, if invited, she would definitely refuse to go.
She warned me to be careful. I got it, I didn’t want to pretend and be a buddy in Joe’s bro world. And yet, it was a big chance for me. Up until now, no writer from Germany had been flown in for this.
Some of Rogan’s guests were really bizarre, some were highly entertaining.
The reason for my invitation was certainly that Rogan is passionate about psychedelics as potential self-optimization tools and advocates their legalization. My book The Strongest Substance examines exactly the point that interests him so much: Why were LSD and other psychedelic substances classified as illegal drugs? Why weren’t they developed into approved drugs for dementia, depression, and trauma, as current research suggests?
On the plane, I watched a few clips to prepare. Some of Rogan’s guests were really bizarre, some were highly entertaining, like Kanye West, for example, who declared himself the “leader of the free world” during the conversation — but was unable to answer Rogan’s question about what his program was.
I spontaneously decided to use the stage the next day to outdo West, namely to declare a revolution, one in dealing with psychedelics. I would work that out in my next book, Stoned Sapiens, a new world history that I wanted to present on the podcast to generate buzz.
Or was that too ambitious? Should I have been a little more modest during my performance? Could I have messed up the big opportunity by pushing it too hard?
The weird turn pro
A limousine with the license plate TEXAS LUX2LUX picked me up from the airport in Austin. The evening before the recording, I sat down in the panoramic restaurant of the superior 4-star hotel and spent my generous food allowance, which was also part of the travel package, ordering a whole chicken and a martini.
Austin is the city of bats, and at sunset, while I was eating my meal, about one and a half million of these creatures fluttered to the bank of the Colorado River in front of the hotel. Some of them looked at me from very close up with sparkling eyes, which intensified the surreal experience of sitting all alone as tomorrow’s guest of an audience of millions.
The recording, which was to begin at 11 a.m., suddenly seemed like the ultimate reality check, a cathartic situation: If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. Would the bats of Austin attack me and suck me dry, or would I leave this city victorious and conquer The New York Times Best Seller list thanks to my appearance? Authors’ book sales usually explode after a visit to Rogan.
Joe’s assistant had informed me in advance that the address of the studio had to remain secret.
The next morning, I went down to the pool at the crack of dawn and did a few lonely laps. A dead bat was lying next to the edge of the pool, which worried me for a moment, even though I didn’t know why. Full of determination, I swam through the warm water; it couldn’t hurt to get my circulation going.
Snoop Dogg had been my predecessor in the guest chair a few days before. Snoop had been rolling huge joints throughout the conversation. Maybe I should eat one of the THC gummy bears I’d brought from LA as a precaution? Or was that risky because I might lose track of the conversation?
I went back to my room, put on my carefully chosen shirt, and the limo was waiting. On the way, I read through my notes for the performance, a few thoughts I didn’t want to forget. I looked outside as we drove away from downtown Austin. Joe’s assistant had informed me in advance that the address of the studio had to remain secret. I was all the more excited.
In fact, the building we stopped in front of was completely faceless from the outside. Rogan obviously wanted to avoid stalkers or fans hanging around the area. “Go over there and ring the bell,” the driver said, pointing to an unmarked door. “I’ll wait for you here until you’re ready.” I heard the buzzer, opened the door and went in.
Life is a four-letter word
In the middle of a large lobby, three other bros were sitting in front of their computers and welcomed me calmly. Perfectly designed furnishings and ultra-cool art objects everywhere, a golden Buddha, a werewolf sculpture, blown-up mug shots of Mick Jagger, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix and David Bowie, the words “Life is a four-letter word” on a poster of the comedian Lenny Bruce, who was arrested several times in the 1960s for his taboo-free humor.
A lot of Rogan memorabilia, such as a bust of his head with the iconic headphones, a portrait of Hunter S. Thompson, next to it the sentence: When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. I would take that to heart.
Next, I took a closer look at the bros. All three were well-built, probably gym-goers, definitely carnivores. And I’m sure they all liked the cold plunge, the ice bath that Rogan had popularized as a toughening exercise. For them, our gathering in this anteroom was routine; there were guests here almost every day, it was nothing special. The atmosphere didn’t change when Rogan himself suddenly appeared in the room.
I said it would be better if we stayed sober — it would increase our credibility.
At 5 feet 7 inches, not particularly tall, in a white Muhammad Ali hoodie, he shook my hand with a firm squeeze and a brief nod and asked if I needed anything else. He looked tired, as if he had been partying the night before, and I was afraid he wouldn’t be particularly fit for our conversation, so I asked for green tea and added, to break the ice, that this was my main drug. He grinned, I went to the bathroom, washed my hands innocently and fixed my hair in the mirror as best I could.
I walked down an angled hallway and entered the sanctuary itself, the studio, sat down in the guest chair, put on the headphones and asked Rogan, who was sitting opposite me and had started making small talk, if cannabis was legal in Texas.
In Austin, he replied, but not in other parts of the state — and immediately took up the topic practically: Would I want to smoke a joint with him as soon as the recording began? I opened a box and had a pre-rolled spliff ready. But I said it would be better if we stayed sober — it would increase our credibility. He agreed, and his co-producer Jamie pressed record.
I felt completely safe
In the first few minutes I was a little too strained. I felt the need to dominate the conversation, to talk as much as possible, to put myself in the right light, and when Joe commented on one of my statements — it was about crystal meth and the Wehrmacht — in the sense of “that was common knowledge.”
I immediately stepped in, marked my territory and explained that until my 2015 book Blitzed, about drugs in the Third Reich, nobody actually knew that the Blitzkrieg was only possible thanks to methamphetamines.
I put this with verve, and suddenly Rogan’s tiredness was gone, he was now completely present: that spark between two people, also known as chemistry, was suddenly there and drove our conversation forward. Rogan’s gaze intensified, and with great joy we went through all the rabbit holes about Nazis and drugs.
Now, I felt I had Joe’s full attention.
But the main topic was my research for my 2024 book Tripped. I mentioned that I had originally wanted to call the book LSD for Moms, but that the publisher had not understood the genius of the title. And told him about my father, a former judge at the Higher Regional Court, who had sent people to prison for drug offenses, but who now gave my mother microdoses of LSD to treat her Alzheimer’s disease.
Now, I felt I had Joe’s full attention. He knew a lot about the subject of psychedelics, became more and more animated, repeatedly expressed his astonishment and created an atmosphere in which we could pass the ball back and forth, so that I felt completely safe and in good hands with him.
Enormously emancipatory
I know from other interviews how exhausting it can be to try not to say the wrong thing — especially when it comes to drugs, a subject that journalists are often unfamiliar with. That was different with Rogan. There were no taboos, it was just about being myself and saying what was on my mind. He looked at me in the eyes, listened, asked questions when he didn’t understand something. It felt sort of liberating.
Rogan doesn’t grill his guests; he doesn’t ask razor-sharp questions, he’s just attentive. His show is an affirmative format, not a critical one. Rogan is by no means the tough guy he is perceived to be at first glance — and that he likes to portray himself as a well-trained martial arts fighter.
In fact, he is incredibly open-minded, funny and warm-hearted. And perhaps more gullible than strict with his guests. The Rogan test simply consists of sitting down with him in a relaxed manner and having a lively conversation for several hours.
I’ll admit this is not the journalism I once learned at the Hamburg School of Journalism. There is no fact-checking in the Rogan world. Here guests speak their minds for over three hours and reach the farthest corners of the earth completely unfiltered.
When we started, everyone thought attention spans were getting shorter and shorter.
There is something enormously emancipatory about that, and the conventional media, where in my experience a censorship reflex often sets in when it comes to topics such as drugs, the Middle East, the war in Ukraine or the fight against pandemics, are miles away from that.
As the conversation progressed, I remembered that it would be good to let him talk a little, too, since it was his podcast, so I turned the tables and asked him how it all started.
“I think this show made itself,” Rogan replied. “There’s a need for honest discourse and real conversation everywhere. That’s why podcasts are exploding. There’s no outside influence here, we just do what we want. Nobody can tell us what to do.”
“When we started, everyone thought attention spans were getting shorter and shorter: TikTok, Instagram Reels replaced everything, but then podcasts gradually became more powerful and suddenly there were three-hour conversations with scientists that were watched by millions. Suddenly people realized: Wow, okay, so it’s not that nobody is intellectually curious. Quite the opposite,” Rogan said.
Now was the right time to talk about my new book Stoned Sapiens and dethrone Kanye West as the leader of the free world. I started, Joe joined in, laughed and invited me back to his podcast next year when Stoned Sapiens comes out.
Tolerance and big risks
Nothing embodies the fundamental change in the media landscape better than JRE, “The Joe Rogan Experience.” This independent podcast can generate more attention than The New York Times and CNN combined — and it’s ideal for me as a writer, of course. But the consequences are far-reaching.
It is foreseeable that more and more government representatives will participate in these kinds of podcasts — including people like Benjamin Netanyahu, who is best buddies with Rogan, Trump and Elon Musk. Even Putin could conceivably be a guest: In principle, anyone could speak in an unfiltered way in the JRE , even individuals against whom the International Criminal Court has requested arrest warrants for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
But that’s how contradictory the new America is.
Strictly speaking, such tolerance is part of a democracy; but it also carries big risks. An eloquent mass murderer or a narcissistic sadist could also reach Austin and whitewash their actions in Rogan’s public bath, while victims the remain voiceless. How many members of minorities have been to Joe Rogan’s podcast? And what kind of picture of social reality is created by the fact that 89% of the guests so far have been men ?
There is a real danger that the JRE will be instrumentalized in the coming years. In fact, it seems bizarre that Rogan, of all people — a representative of free speech who supports same-sex marriage, criticizes Israel’s Gaza war, advocates for universal healthcare and calls for a basic income for all — has become the mouthpiece and supporter of the homophobic autocrat Trump. But that’s how contradictory the new America is.
Not only young men
The following day, I was able to see on my smartphone what effect Rogan’s show had. Our conversation received several million views on YouTube and Spotify, and I was particularly amazed by the comments. “The kind of guest that makes JRE No. 1” they said, or “This guy is Rogan’s dream come true.” “One of the best episodes ever!”
When I clicked on the “Requests” button on Instagram, I was flooded with mail from thousands of people who were suddenly reading all of my books. “Thank you for your work, so enlightening,” Rogan had said as he left — and that made me famous in America overnight.
From Austin, I flew to New Mexico, drove with a friend in a rental car towards Los Angeles and stayed there until mid-November.
Apparently, the JRE is not only being received by frustrated young men.
In the desert of Joshua Tree, I met a 77-year-old lady who had contacted me about the podcast. We drank coffee at the Morongo Valley Cafe, and she told me that she was afraid of becoming demented and believed that microdosing could prevent it. Her father had died of Alzheimer’s disease, and she wanted to spare her daughter what she had experienced. Apparently, the JRE is not only being received by frustrated young men.
Yet the woman criticized Rogan’s endorsement of Trump. “I think Joe Rogan is naive. There is a theory that he hopes for the legalization of psychedelics because of Robert F. Kennedy Jr., but Rogan himself does not fit into this MAGA world at all. They are loud, suspicious, narrow-minded racists — the exact opposite of Joe Rogan,” she said.
She looked at me with her bright light blue eyes, then laughed: “But I give him a lot of credit for bringing us together!”
